Totally agree. I emphasize that there should be no child transition, including NO medical interventions to appear the opposite sex and NO social transition. As you said, children and teens should never be shamed for their interests, ways of expressing themselves, or general levels of masculinity or femininity. Instead of telling effeminate boys they are girls and then going out and buying new clothes and letting them grow their hair, how about assuring a boy there is nothing wrong with dressing differently than most boys or having long hair or playing with Barbie dolls? Same for masculine girls. They don't need anything other than acceptance.
For teens, some may need therapy if they have strong self-hatred connected to their bodies, but they should also be re-assured that they are fine as they are, and allowed to express themselves however they like w/o medical interventions and without social transition. For adults - 25 and up - my position is that these extreme cosmetic interventions should not be outlawed, any more than we would outlaw other extreme cosmetic procedures, and they can socially pretend they are the opposite sex in general (except as noted below). However, in addition to assuring that the person seeking these interventions is mentally stable, there should never be an indication that this is a medical intervention. They should be given the full list of effects and side effects and potential problems, including the unknowns, and allowed to do this if they want to. It should not be covered by insurance/Medicaid because it is not a medical treatment. Nobody who has such cosmetic interventions should be discriminated against - fired, excluded from housing, prevented from marrying or adopting, disrespected or physically harmed. However, no man - regardless of cosmetic procedures - has the right to enter women only bathrooms (though some will because they "pass" and are stealth, as has always been the case), locker rooms and showers, women's prisons, women's domestic abuse shelters, rape crisis centers, homeless shelters, or participate in women's sports. That's it.
> "However, no man - regardless of cosmetic procedures - has the right to enter women only bathrooms …" [ETA for quote marks ...]
No man? A no man’s land? Not even to fix the plumbing or electrical systems? For a soccer game during a Christmas Armistice? 😉🙂
But you had a rather brilliant observation about emulation the other day. Imitation can be the sincerest form of flattery but insisting that one’s self is that image is to cross the Rubicon into crazy town. Was listening to Kim Carnes’ Betty Davis eyes — something of an anthem among the gay tribe — “make a pro blush” in particular; a few tales to hang on that hook — that speaks, rather loudly, to that profound dichotomy — the boundary between self and other. See also a sci-fi classic, A Canticle for Leibowitz, something from the Miller tribe … 😉🙂
Speaking of having skin in the game 😉🙂, our bodies are, presumably, at least temporary homes for lost souls of one sort or another. I guess the question is which is the more important. Judgement of Solomon and all that. A difficult decision to try our own souls, such as they are.
But best of the season to you and yours. Twelve days of Xmas, Jesus and the 12 monkeys 😉🙂, the three wise guys and all that. 🙂🎄🍪🎅💕
All of this. One point not made is legal sex change. This unusual practice serves no purpose beyond trying to trick people into disbelieving what they are generally able to see. The "moderate" position would be the removal of gender designation from various things (mainly licenses) as it's typically unnecessary to make a formal sex designation.
This is a a succinct and accurate distillation, thank you! I especially appreciate where you highlight the difference in Wu's opinions on child transition in boys vs. girls. This disparity jumped out at me, and Wu seems absolutely thrilled to chime in on the phenomenon of girls transitioning being something different from boys. I agree that it is (mostly and historically) a different phenomenon but as time goes on, the contagion aspect has almost certainly bled into some of the boys' experiences. Beyond that, I sense a dismissal in Wu's tone of the level of distress that girls are experiencing, that makes transition an attractive option. I hear in it the completely self serving view that boys with gender distress are suffering something "real" where girls are are just going through a phase. It tracks with Wu's general attitude toward women (unless those women offer a potentially lucrative platform). Thanks again to you and Nina, for enduring Wu's behavior, it brought to light the underlying misogyny that I can't unsee.
Girls transitioning is very different from boys transitioning. Testosterone gives, but it does not take away. A female puberty can be fairly well bulldozed by testosterone, which causes facial hair and a deepened voice; a male puberty, however, will barely be affected by estrogen, which will not take away greater size, strength, a deep voice, or facial hair. Trans men pass much more easily than trans women. A trans woman who has gone through male puberty often looks like a man in drag, despite having a penectomy and breast implants. Being faced with this, it is more likely a male transsexual will commit suicide than a female transsexual - and this is something to consider. It is a genuine difference.
The girls transitioning are getting pregnant and subjecting fetuses to cross sex hormones. How a female could consider herself male and then go ahead and get pregnant speaks volumes as to how this is a social contagion that can’t be eradicated fast enough. I am also sorry to say that I can spot a female playing at being a male a mile away. It just doesn’t work. See Freud’s The Uncanny. Is this the effect they want to wield on people?
There is very little reliable evidence to date regarding the true suicide rates in people who claim "trans" identities. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) regarding differential suicide rates post transition for trans-identified males versus females. The few studies that have focused on suicide rates suffer from many weaknesses. One of the primary weaknesses is that people who claim to be "transgender" usually have other mental disorders that create elevated rates of suicidality.
Androgenization is definitely a one-way door, but is there evidence that trans women complete suicide more often than trans men? (I think there actually is, and it's the Danish retrospective from 2023 in which they looked back 40 years and found 12 completed suicides. Every single one was a trans women. IOW, not a single trans man committed suicide in 40 years of excellent Danish record-keeping.)
You have to find this information buried in Table 3. Because they sure don't make it clear in the body of the paper:
But men in general succeed in committing suicide more than women because they use more lethal means: guns, jumping off tall buildings. Women attempt suicide more but fail more frequently as the means they use are less effective: like pills, poisons or razors.
I am well aware. I was referring to Wu's reasoning for allowing boys to transition vs. girls, and Wu's reasoning. This is all in reference to Corinna's breakdown of Wu's position, not the actual causes and effects of transition in minors.
On the podcast Gender: A Wider Lens episode where the hosts interviewed one of the creators of the Dutch protocol, the guest made an impassioned plea for male transition as early as possible in life before testosterone forever forecloses the boys opportunity to grow up with a truly feminine appearance. I believe it was episode 66: "Pioneer Series: Where It all Started. The Dutch Researchers Steensma and De Vries."
Since most "true trans" males are AGP, the drive to transition boys early is serving the AGP agenda. It's important to bear this in mind.
Thank you for blasting out the clarion truth of an actual moderate position compared to Wu's stated public views, which are anything but. After hearing him attack Nina on Heterodorx, I was disgusted on more than one level, some of it felt personal as it was an attack on a fellow woman I respect. Also excellent call out of all these gushy podcasts profiling him, although I admit I didn't listen to most. I cancelled my paid sub to the FP after that interview with Wu, I was that disturbed. For me, Wu as a person is irrelevant except for him representing this narrative of the "reasonable transsexual" by those I thought would know better. Why don't they know better, any theories? Why would they be embracing this? Are they just naive? Is Wu's stance on Israel part of it, at least with the FP? Would they have been as put off and angered as I was if they had heard that interview on your show?
I've come to the conclusion that the desperation to have anyone leftish vehemently defend Israel is clouding many people's eyes. It's been frustrating to see and it will certainly backfire on them. Wu is very skilled at telling people what they want to hear, if it's valuable to Wu. The calculated, patronizing sucking up should be evident to everyone that witnessed the Way Wu treated Nina.
It takes a man to say breast reconstruction is no big deal. If the nipples have been detached then that obliterates the breasts as an erogenous zone which not only give pleasure to the woman but also to her partner, forming an important element in pair-bonding.
It's a general pervasive idea in our culture that breasts are only for males pleasure, they are only of esthetic value, not organs designed specifically to keep infants alive. Since Wu has his own fake boobs that are only of esthetic value, that's the only way he can understand it.
I had a breast reduction due to some pretty extreme pain that was making me miserable. As someone who had a lot of breast for the surgeon to work with I still have plenty left. I did have my nipples removed and reattached. That means that breastfeeding wasn’t an option for me. When considering having a child, not being able to produce milk was a serious point of consideration. Formula is very expensive and it was going to be a serious hit to the budget if I went forward. It was as a very big deal. Anyone who says different needs to go buy a can of formula. From the locked case. Because people steal it because it is so expensive.
Corinna, I stumbled upon your podcast about a year ago and it’s been a massive white pill for me. I had really believed that there was no common ground to be found with people in typically leftist identified groups (feminists, trans). As a conservative pagan, mother of 5 and politically libertarian/ anarchist, I am also quite heterodox and don’t fit into a neat identity either. Thank you for your bravery and for standing up against this evil imposed on kids. I massively respect your honesty and integrity.
After listening to an interview with Brianna Wu I am still looking for an answer to this question. Wu said repeatedly that the election of Donald Trump would inevitably lead to not receiving the medications needed to keep her alive. Wait. What? Is this a matter of the drugs being made illegal? Can your doctor not write a prescription? Or is it a matter of money?
Frankly, she’s an adult and if she wants to identify as a standard poodle I could care less. However, I don’t want to pay for her delusions.
Wu is engaging in the usual trans scaremongering. I don't have a breakdown of actions by Republican legislators to regulate the medical treatment of people with gender problems. However, I suspect their focus is on protecting minors from the unknown risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. Ideally, they should also ban gender-affirming care for minors in favor of the former watchful waiting model and prohibit the teaching of gender identity ideology in K-12 schools, public or private.
Kinda think any use of that phrase should be bracketed with 24 pt. flashing neon scare quotes. Absolutely no one changes sex, and anything that suggests it's even possible should be anathematized in no uncertain terms.
Likewise with the rather odious euphemism, "gender-affirming care". Should be calling a spade a shovel and at least bracketing the term with "AKA, the sterilization and castration of autistic and dysphoric children, for turning them into sexless eunuchs".
Rather "amused" to note that Jennifer Bilek had a recent post on the same theme, but she had also linked to a market study that estimated that the 2022 market value of such surgeries was about $2.1 billion:
No doubt "adults" might reasonably be granted the right to do that to themselves -- there used to be some market for eunuchs in Imperial China, and there may be some job opportunities for such in Middle East harems:
But to trick autistic and dysphoric children into "consenting" to such has to qualify as the biggest medical scandal to come down the pike in a long time, at least since the Tuskegee syphilis study. A bigger "Big Lie" is scarcely imaginable. Should be hell to pay for that -- a whole bunch of "doctors" deserve to be strung up by their nuts and left to twist in the wind -- figuratively speaking, at least ...
Thank you for your thoughtful article. I feel that the reason Wu draws such a hard line on pronouns and believes if a person has surgery they really do become the opposite sex. Anyone not adhering to that strict rule disrupts Wu's delusion and causes him great discomfort. If Wu were truly confident in his decision for surgeries and hormones it wouldn't matter what anyone else thought or said. Respect and trust are earned. You cannot demand them.
I think I agree with everything you’ve written—thank you for identifying & linking to Brianna Wu’s various statements.
I will add that I’ve found it useful, in my conversations with other progressives, to be able to point to examples of trans-identifying people who are willing to say that a course-correction is needed. As a way to get a foot in the door.
But my advocacy style is adaptive, so I’m open to the possibility that the situations when pointing to Wu is an effective rather than counterproductive move may be diminishing.
Sorry if that last sentence wasn’t clear. I meant that as time goes on, there may be a dwindling number of situations when it’s a net-effective move to point to Wu, and I may stop doing that.
Well said, Corinna (Cori). It would be challenging for me to compose an essay this clear without forking off into a tirade! Your composure is admirable!
Totally agree. I emphasize that there should be no child transition, including NO medical interventions to appear the opposite sex and NO social transition. As you said, children and teens should never be shamed for their interests, ways of expressing themselves, or general levels of masculinity or femininity. Instead of telling effeminate boys they are girls and then going out and buying new clothes and letting them grow their hair, how about assuring a boy there is nothing wrong with dressing differently than most boys or having long hair or playing with Barbie dolls? Same for masculine girls. They don't need anything other than acceptance.
For teens, some may need therapy if they have strong self-hatred connected to their bodies, but they should also be re-assured that they are fine as they are, and allowed to express themselves however they like w/o medical interventions and without social transition. For adults - 25 and up - my position is that these extreme cosmetic interventions should not be outlawed, any more than we would outlaw other extreme cosmetic procedures, and they can socially pretend they are the opposite sex in general (except as noted below). However, in addition to assuring that the person seeking these interventions is mentally stable, there should never be an indication that this is a medical intervention. They should be given the full list of effects and side effects and potential problems, including the unknowns, and allowed to do this if they want to. It should not be covered by insurance/Medicaid because it is not a medical treatment. Nobody who has such cosmetic interventions should be discriminated against - fired, excluded from housing, prevented from marrying or adopting, disrespected or physically harmed. However, no man - regardless of cosmetic procedures - has the right to enter women only bathrooms (though some will because they "pass" and are stealth, as has always been the case), locker rooms and showers, women's prisons, women's domestic abuse shelters, rape crisis centers, homeless shelters, or participate in women's sports. That's it.
Yes this.
> "However, no man - regardless of cosmetic procedures - has the right to enter women only bathrooms …" [ETA for quote marks ...]
No man? A no man’s land? Not even to fix the plumbing or electrical systems? For a soccer game during a Christmas Armistice? 😉🙂
But you had a rather brilliant observation about emulation the other day. Imitation can be the sincerest form of flattery but insisting that one’s self is that image is to cross the Rubicon into crazy town. Was listening to Kim Carnes’ Betty Davis eyes — something of an anthem among the gay tribe — “make a pro blush” in particular; a few tales to hang on that hook — that speaks, rather loudly, to that profound dichotomy — the boundary between self and other. See also a sci-fi classic, A Canticle for Leibowitz, something from the Miller tribe … 😉🙂
^^^This.
Though I stand amidst the roar of a surf-tormented shore. Edgar Allan Poe, circa 1850 -- probably some time before the discovery of gametes ... 😉🙂
Speaking of having skin in the game 😉🙂, our bodies are, presumably, at least temporary homes for lost souls of one sort or another. I guess the question is which is the more important. Judgement of Solomon and all that. A difficult decision to try our own souls, such as they are.
But best of the season to you and yours. Twelve days of Xmas, Jesus and the 12 monkeys 😉🙂, the three wise guys and all that. 🙂🎄🍪🎅💕
All of this. One point not made is legal sex change. This unusual practice serves no purpose beyond trying to trick people into disbelieving what they are generally able to see. The "moderate" position would be the removal of gender designation from various things (mainly licenses) as it's typically unnecessary to make a formal sex designation.
This is a a succinct and accurate distillation, thank you! I especially appreciate where you highlight the difference in Wu's opinions on child transition in boys vs. girls. This disparity jumped out at me, and Wu seems absolutely thrilled to chime in on the phenomenon of girls transitioning being something different from boys. I agree that it is (mostly and historically) a different phenomenon but as time goes on, the contagion aspect has almost certainly bled into some of the boys' experiences. Beyond that, I sense a dismissal in Wu's tone of the level of distress that girls are experiencing, that makes transition an attractive option. I hear in it the completely self serving view that boys with gender distress are suffering something "real" where girls are are just going through a phase. It tracks with Wu's general attitude toward women (unless those women offer a potentially lucrative platform). Thanks again to you and Nina, for enduring Wu's behavior, it brought to light the underlying misogyny that I can't unsee.
Girls transitioning is very different from boys transitioning. Testosterone gives, but it does not take away. A female puberty can be fairly well bulldozed by testosterone, which causes facial hair and a deepened voice; a male puberty, however, will barely be affected by estrogen, which will not take away greater size, strength, a deep voice, or facial hair. Trans men pass much more easily than trans women. A trans woman who has gone through male puberty often looks like a man in drag, despite having a penectomy and breast implants. Being faced with this, it is more likely a male transsexual will commit suicide than a female transsexual - and this is something to consider. It is a genuine difference.
The girls transitioning are getting pregnant and subjecting fetuses to cross sex hormones. How a female could consider herself male and then go ahead and get pregnant speaks volumes as to how this is a social contagion that can’t be eradicated fast enough. I am also sorry to say that I can spot a female playing at being a male a mile away. It just doesn’t work. See Freud’s The Uncanny. Is this the effect they want to wield on people?
There is very little reliable evidence to date regarding the true suicide rates in people who claim "trans" identities. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) regarding differential suicide rates post transition for trans-identified males versus females. The few studies that have focused on suicide rates suffer from many weaknesses. One of the primary weaknesses is that people who claim to be "transgender" usually have other mental disorders that create elevated rates of suicidality.
Androgenization is definitely a one-way door, but is there evidence that trans women complete suicide more often than trans men? (I think there actually is, and it's the Danish retrospective from 2023 in which they looked back 40 years and found 12 completed suicides. Every single one was a trans women. IOW, not a single trans man committed suicide in 40 years of excellent Danish record-keeping.)
You have to find this information buried in Table 3. Because they sure don't make it clear in the body of the paper:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2806531#joi230059t3
But men in general succeed in committing suicide more than women because they use more lethal means: guns, jumping off tall buildings. Women attempt suicide more but fail more frequently as the means they use are less effective: like pills, poisons or razors.
Yes, I think that's a conclusion that can be drawn from it. But an interesting number regardless.
I am well aware. I was referring to Wu's reasoning for allowing boys to transition vs. girls, and Wu's reasoning. This is all in reference to Corinna's breakdown of Wu's position, not the actual causes and effects of transition in minors.
On the podcast Gender: A Wider Lens episode where the hosts interviewed one of the creators of the Dutch protocol, the guest made an impassioned plea for male transition as early as possible in life before testosterone forever forecloses the boys opportunity to grow up with a truly feminine appearance. I believe it was episode 66: "Pioneer Series: Where It all Started. The Dutch Researchers Steensma and De Vries."
Since most "true trans" males are AGP, the drive to transition boys early is serving the AGP agenda. It's important to bear this in mind.
Wu demonstrates so little understanding of girls and women yet claims to be one.
Thank you for blasting out the clarion truth of an actual moderate position compared to Wu's stated public views, which are anything but. After hearing him attack Nina on Heterodorx, I was disgusted on more than one level, some of it felt personal as it was an attack on a fellow woman I respect. Also excellent call out of all these gushy podcasts profiling him, although I admit I didn't listen to most. I cancelled my paid sub to the FP after that interview with Wu, I was that disturbed. For me, Wu as a person is irrelevant except for him representing this narrative of the "reasonable transsexual" by those I thought would know better. Why don't they know better, any theories? Why would they be embracing this? Are they just naive? Is Wu's stance on Israel part of it, at least with the FP? Would they have been as put off and angered as I was if they had heard that interview on your show?
I've come to the conclusion that the desperation to have anyone leftish vehemently defend Israel is clouding many people's eyes. It's been frustrating to see and it will certainly backfire on them. Wu is very skilled at telling people what they want to hear, if it's valuable to Wu. The calculated, patronizing sucking up should be evident to everyone that witnessed the Way Wu treated Nina.
They do know better. They just want attention.
It takes a man to say breast reconstruction is no big deal. If the nipples have been detached then that obliterates the breasts as an erogenous zone which not only give pleasure to the woman but also to her partner, forming an important element in pair-bonding.
It's a general pervasive idea in our culture that breasts are only for males pleasure, they are only of esthetic value, not organs designed specifically to keep infants alive. Since Wu has his own fake boobs that are only of esthetic value, that's the only way he can understand it.
I had a breast reduction due to some pretty extreme pain that was making me miserable. As someone who had a lot of breast for the surgeon to work with I still have plenty left. I did have my nipples removed and reattached. That means that breastfeeding wasn’t an option for me. When considering having a child, not being able to produce milk was a serious point of consideration. Formula is very expensive and it was going to be a serious hit to the budget if I went forward. It was as a very big deal. Anyone who says different needs to go buy a can of formula. From the locked case. Because people steal it because it is so expensive.
It also forecloses breastfeeding your infant. Breast is the best.
Corinna, I stumbled upon your podcast about a year ago and it’s been a massive white pill for me. I had really believed that there was no common ground to be found with people in typically leftist identified groups (feminists, trans). As a conservative pagan, mother of 5 and politically libertarian/ anarchist, I am also quite heterodox and don’t fit into a neat identity either. Thank you for your bravery and for standing up against this evil imposed on kids. I massively respect your honesty and integrity.
Corey i smiled so widely when i saw you’d made a post. Thank you so much for writing.
After listening to an interview with Brianna Wu I am still looking for an answer to this question. Wu said repeatedly that the election of Donald Trump would inevitably lead to not receiving the medications needed to keep her alive. Wait. What? Is this a matter of the drugs being made illegal? Can your doctor not write a prescription? Or is it a matter of money?
Frankly, she’s an adult and if she wants to identify as a standard poodle I could care less. However, I don’t want to pay for her delusions.
Ditto. I have been waiting in vain for an interviewer to pose this very question!
Wu is engaging in the usual trans scaremongering. I don't have a breakdown of actions by Republican legislators to regulate the medical treatment of people with gender problems. However, I suspect their focus is on protecting minors from the unknown risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. Ideally, they should also ban gender-affirming care for minors in favor of the former watchful waiting model and prohibit the teaching of gender identity ideology in K-12 schools, public or private.
> "sex reassignment surgery"
Kinda think any use of that phrase should be bracketed with 24 pt. flashing neon scare quotes. Absolutely no one changes sex, and anything that suggests it's even possible should be anathematized in no uncertain terms.
Likewise with the rather odious euphemism, "gender-affirming care". Should be calling a spade a shovel and at least bracketing the term with "AKA, the sterilization and castration of autistic and dysphoric children, for turning them into sexless eunuchs".
Rather "amused" to note that Jennifer Bilek had a recent post on the same theme, but she had also linked to a market study that estimated that the 2022 market value of such surgeries was about $2.1 billion:
https://jbilek.substack.com/p/public-bathrooms-and-the-rising-political
https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/us-sex-reassignment-surgery-market
The makers and marketers of Zyklon B might have envied the opportunities for a product with uses not too dissimilar from their own ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B#Use_in_the_Holocaust
No doubt "adults" might reasonably be granted the right to do that to themselves -- there used to be some market for eunuchs in Imperial China, and there may be some job opportunities for such in Middle East harems:
https://www.usrf.org/news/010308-hiddenpower.html
But to trick autistic and dysphoric children into "consenting" to such has to qualify as the biggest medical scandal to come down the pike in a long time, at least since the Tuskegee syphilis study. A bigger "Big Lie" is scarcely imaginable. Should be hell to pay for that -- a whole bunch of "doctors" deserve to be strung up by their nuts and left to twist in the wind -- figuratively speaking, at least ...
Thank you! I found it disconcerting that Bari Weiss didn’t really push this guy in any meaningful way. And I agree with your statements.
Thank you for your thoughtful article. I feel that the reason Wu draws such a hard line on pronouns and believes if a person has surgery they really do become the opposite sex. Anyone not adhering to that strict rule disrupts Wu's delusion and causes him great discomfort. If Wu were truly confident in his decision for surgeries and hormones it wouldn't matter what anyone else thought or said. Respect and trust are earned. You cannot demand them.
You are just about the only trans I want to listen to. There are others besides Brianna that want to seem reasonable but still use women’s spaces.
"moderate" by any measure is 100% nonsense
"culture wars" irrelevant
Sports irrelevant
children irrelevant
There are two sexes
ZERO men are EVER women
ZERO people are EVER born in the wrong body
ZERO mammals can EVER change sex
Governments must end the lies
Do what you want to your body, but society owes ZERO to such persons.
One of my biggest problems w Wu is the usage of filters to make him look more feminine. Thst encourages other
I think I agree with everything you’ve written—thank you for identifying & linking to Brianna Wu’s various statements.
I will add that I’ve found it useful, in my conversations with other progressives, to be able to point to examples of trans-identifying people who are willing to say that a course-correction is needed. As a way to get a foot in the door.
But my advocacy style is adaptive, so I’m open to the possibility that the situations when pointing to Wu is an effective rather than counterproductive move may be diminishing.
Sorry if that last sentence wasn’t clear. I meant that as time goes on, there may be a dwindling number of situations when it’s a net-effective move to point to Wu, and I may stop doing that.
Well said, Corinna (Cori). It would be challenging for me to compose an essay this clear without forking off into a tirade! Your composure is admirable!